Thursday, June 02, 2005

SEX AND THE CITY - OUR CITY!!

I’m back!
Had a very busy week, and still do – but I missed the blog, and I had something to get off my (34-B) chest, so here I am.

I am on the board of a large community organization. We had our bi-weekly meeting yesterday, and some disturbing news, that apparently everyone knew about except for me, was one of the topics discussed.

FACT: A fifteen year old girl in Williamsburg, recently gave birth to twins. She is naturally a single girl, living under her chasidishe family’s watchful eyes, yet – “Where there’s a will, there’s a way” and she had a boyfriend………the twins were given up for adoption, the girl was sent to Israel for a year, to a girl’s school, and the identity of the girl is being kept (trying to anyway) quiet.

FACT: A sixteen year old girl in Williamsburg, just had an abortion………same circumstances.

FACT: A kallah in Williamsburg has gone to her Ruv with this sheila…….being that she is a victim of long term abuse by her father and no longer a virgin, is she obligated to inform her chosson.

I heard more at this meeting, believe me……but I won’t go into each and every case - too numerous to relate.

The dilemma facing the community leaders is; how to keep the teenagers at home – how to keep them happy at home, so they do not feel the need to explore the outside world with all it’s glitz and glitter on the surface, and the ultimate heartbreak that will ensue.

Is a moment of excitement and lust worth a lifetime of shame?
Is the sin of sex before marriage, possible abortions, unwanted babies, worth the guilt that will stay for always and ever?

Yes – the Rabbonim have imposed a 10 p.m. curfew for single girls.
Do they really have the naivete to not know that
“whatever Lola wants Lola gets”?
Curfew or no curfew…….

Their curfew is no solution at all. Rather the opposite. It will make it more exciting to sneak out, hang out with the wrong crowd.

Has anyone read Pearl Abraham’s first book, “The Romance Reader?" Although she writes it in novel form, it’s based on her own life, growing up in Monsey, being choked by restrictions, marrying someone her parents chose, and ultimately leaving the chasidic world. It’s a wonderful book, written with honesty….

The answer is to make the children and teenagers feel loved and respected at home. Don’t say NO to everything! Allow them the video games, allow the library books, take them to Eichler’s to choose books and music that are jewish oriented, take them to museums, go bowling with them, play scrabble with them, let them go bike riding in a park that is safe.

DON’T GIVE THEM SO MANY RESTRICTIONS THAT THEY
WILL FEEL LIKE PRISONERS IN THEIR OWN HOMES.

Because then - they will plan a breakout – for sure!

Give compliments and praise their accomplishments, don’t just lecture them and put them down. Don’t focus on the bad mark they got in geography. What about the A that they got in History? Teach and parent with kindness, teach by example. Give them a warm, loving atmosphere in the home – they won’t feel the need to escape if that is so.

What was the atmosphere like in YOUR home when you were growing up?
Do you think that if things had been different, you might have grown up to be happier?
Would you have been more religious?
Did YOUR parents give you the love and warmth that you needed?

253 Comments:

At 7:15 PM, Blogger AnotherNYJew said...

I have always found that it is the kids that can talk to their parent(s), can say anything and know they will be loved the same, it is those kids that turn out well. This does not exclude discipline, it does include trust and love.

 
At 7:43 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

is lola a yiddeshe numen?
first of all how did a 15 year old figure out about sex when half the people on shlomys blog are still fumfering in the dark?

 
At 8:06 PM, Blogger NotStamaGuy said...

This is abhorrent! It's just a veiled attempt to promote sensationalism and to be provocative and inflammatory. It is a contemptuous and villainous effort to give undeserved prominence to ills of promiscuousness, and to cast aspersions on the parent generation. It is downright rebellious! Its effect is nothing more and nothing less than to scandalize the chasidishe community. Blogging in this way is sheer acrimoniousness. It's unconscionable and betrays a lack of good will toward one's very own origins. And not only that: the proffered suggestions are entirely superficial; they fail to get to the root of the matter. This is nothing but "new age" mishkabible!

 
At 8:10 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to NOTSTAM;
Did I not ask you to please refrain from giving your crazy rantings on my blog???
Stay away!

 
At 8:15 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

YOU GO GIRL!

 
At 8:19 PM, Blogger cynic said...

when rebbes are busy fighting each other for honor and money and at the same time they preach about morality ,this hypocrisy certainly influences young adults who are preceptive to what is occuring in their environment.
"do as i say not as i do"

 
At 8:25 PM, Blogger NotStamaGuy said...

Why do you fear the truth so?

 
At 8:31 PM, Blogger Moishe Q. Public said...

It is not fearing the truth, it is disliking trolls like you.

 
At 8:35 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

mishkabible! now thats a big word.

 
At 8:39 PM, Blogger cynic said...

kvetcher its acombination of
mishnaandkabala

 
At 8:41 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

cynic, i changed my hoizen to day.

 
At 8:42 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

MG. how about putting up "my name is luka, i live on the 2nd floor?"

 
At 8:54 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Kvetch....you mean a new post about abuse.....

My name is luka
I live on the second floor
I live upstairs from you
Yes I think you’ve seen me before
If you hear something late at night
Some kind of trouble, some kind of fight
Just don’t ask me what it was
Maybe it’s because I’m clumsy
I try not to talk too loud
Maybe it’s because I’m crazy
I try not to act too proud
They only hit until you cry
And after that you don’t ask why
You just don’t argue anymore
Yes, I think I’m okay
Walked into the door again
If you ask that’s what I’ll say
And it’s not your business anyway
I guess I’d like to be alone
With nothing broken, nothing thrown

 
At 9:07 PM, Blogger cynic said...

kvetcher lola is yiddish nickname
shortened from LoiLanie

 
At 9:08 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

how does she do it folks? she is a walking juke box.

 
At 9:09 PM, Blogger cynic said...

mamish an iluy

 
At 9:23 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

people --- stick to the topic at hand.......please!! mcuh as I love all the comments, I really want to hear your thoughts on what I posted.

 
At 9:29 PM, Blogger Moishe Q. Public said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 9:31 PM, Blogger Moishe Q. Public said...

Just like your post (and subsequent comments) a while ago about adultery, you are learning that the frum community is no different (in too many ways) from the secular. For whatever reasons, growing up in a frum household does NOT guarentee instilling the values we wish it would any more than the secular households. The problems are the same all over.

 
At 9:32 PM, Blogger cynic said...

What was the atmosphere like in YOUR home when you were growing up?
tense.i'm child of the holocaust

Do you think that if things had been different, you might have grown up to be happier?
yes
Would you have been more religious?
no
Did YOUR parents give you the love and warmth that you needed?
love but not warmth
ok mg back to the topic

 
At 9:44 PM, Blogger cynic said...

notstam
a godol (forgot his name)lived in the time of the Ketzos and complained to him,why are u so famous and i'm not afterall i get up every morning and write and write.
the ketzos told him i get up every morning and erase.

 
At 9:58 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

HERE IS A SYNOPSIS OF COMMENTS GOING BACK AND FORTH ON FRUMMER'S BLOG ON EXACTLY THIS TOPIC.
HOPE MG YOU DON'T MIND ME PLUGING IT IN HERE.

."nor are the back alleys of said towns filled with boys and girls making out."

Before you dismiss my remarks as being exaggerated, I would suggest you find out for yourself.
Do you have any relatives in Williamsburg?
Why don't you ask them about the community's Chinuch Asife they were invited to last week?
Ask them why it was advised they keep their young daughters off the street.
Ask, and then come back and write a new post.
Like I commented on Striemel's latest post, the fabric is unraveling, the rips and holes are getting larger and wider.
Soon they will be too large to mend.

And again, as I advised Frummer, find out more about the Drashes in Willy by Zalmen Lieb Philip and Abe C. Tauber.
And even their take on the matter IMHO, was conservative and restrained.

# posted by Hoezentragerin : 5/25/2005

So Frummer, you want more info.
Just to give you a little picture, they just came up with a new takana there.
Since teenage girls should not be "drien zich in the gasen" girls should not be going to their friend's sister's weddings any more.
Brilliant solution.
They got mice, so they are covering up the cake.
As ridiculous as their take on this matter, as with most matters are, you wonder why they feel the need to implement such changes.
The mice aren't the Puerto Ricans and Shvartze, I don't think.
I have a family member in 12th grade.
3 of her classmates (out of about 30) decent kids from wonderful homes, were caught hanging out and making out
And guess what?
These kids are still in school!
5 years ago, they would have been kicked out, ass first.
Why do you think the Hanhala is changing their approach?
Am I the only one reading the handwriting on the wall?

# posted by Hoezentragerin : 5/25/2005

Hozen, do you have a better solution?

Can you show me a society that ever existed or that exist now on planet earth that did not have any problems?

How would you create your Utopia?

Yes, large communities usually have greater problems than smaller communities. The problem begins when those evil people (and I call them evil because they take inicent young boys and girls and ruin their lives. No child has ever been built up or improved by those villains. They just cannot control their sexual urge. And many times they do it "just to show everyone what they can do.")organize themselves. In larger communities it is easier to organize because there are more people like them.

We all see the writings on the wall. To know the future, we have to study the past. Go back to Poland before WWII, Russia and most other Europian counties where Jews lived in.

We will live through it again. I just pray that it should never happen to my children. My children are still little but I already say Tehilim that they should have the power to overcome all the trials and tribulation that waits us all in the future.

Remeber, the best way that your tefilah should be accepted is by praying for others and prying ahead of time.

This is a very serious issue and I hate when people especially the women here, are talking about it as if it were a joke.

# posted by shlomohamelech : 5/25/2005

Shlomo,
You must really have an amazing sense of humor if you find serious stuff funny.

As for solutions.
I don't profess to having all the answers.
But unlike many others, I refuse to bury my head in the sand.
I would suggest,start with the Yeshive system that sucks, to put it mildly.
If your "at Risk" bucherim are growing out of proportion, are you surprised that the girls are caching up?

" To know the future, we have to study the past. Go back to Poland before WWII, Russia and most other European counties where Jews lived in."
And need I remind you, European Jewry was destroyed.

# posted by Hoezentragerin : 5/25/2005

Hozen,

As always, just brilliant. Just like the ignorants that have no access to TV and are thus blissfully ignorant of the latest bio threat, Frummer? is walking head in sand, thinking our infidelity issues are isolated.

I just take exception to your contention that the fabric of the community is unraveling. I would argue it was never secure in the first place. The emperor never had any clothes and everything was just a cover. I'm not saying people always made out in the back allays. But was the chinuch system adequate to instill in our children the values we cherish? Was it adequate in terms of preparing our children for the realities of the world? Can sheltering be called preparation? The results are only now begnning to be noticed, but it's far too late.

A. C. Tauber is running around delivering speeches about how dangerous it is for girls to work in offices. He suggests that girls should spend a few more years in school.

I can see where he's coming from. But is this the solution? Can we say with a straight face that we should send our kids to schools that fail in the basic obligation: preparing them for the challenges of living an adult life? Can these be called "schools?"

# posted by Anonymous : 5/25/2005

Frummer?

You amaze me with your ability to peddle a line that you know nothing of. What do you know about the "outside" world and the degree to which it suffers from sex, drugs, illegitimacy, and other threats? What do you know about the communities in the outside world that do not suffer from these scourges?

Crime rate? last time I checked, dozens of heimishe people are in prison for various crimes, from blue to white collar, with hundreds more under the criminal justice system in some other way.

Teenage prenancy? Are you counting the hundreds of charedi 19 year olds (ok, newly-weds)that give birth every year?

In fact, most "outside" world communities deal very effectively with these problems. In most US suburban communities, schools are good, kids go to school, they work in the summer, they do not become pregnant at 15, they continue their higher education and go to collage, they contribue to charitable causes, and --all this without a Torah Education. And yes, lest I forget, they do not end up on welfare as parasites on society.


Heart in the right place won't change the situation one iota. I respect A.C.T.'s willingness to speak up, but his proposed "solutions" will only perpetuate the problem. It all flows from the FALSE premise that sheltering people will keep them in the fold and the even bigger lie that indoctrination equals education. It has to be said loud and clear: we are failing our kids, in that we do not teach them how to think critically and how to evaluate ethical questions al pi torah. The extremists have won, eradicating all critical thinking from our schools' curricula, and the results are now evident. We call "those" kids "at-risk." But all kids are at risk. When schools don't teach, when class is a place to socialize, and when students do not learn, how will our kids learn to think like adults? Where will they learn the life skills they need to navigate the dangerous waters called "life?"

We teach and practice isolation, both from the opposite sex and the larger world, something impossible to accomplish on a large scale. It may have worked in the shtetl (did it?), but not in the big city. Is isolation the answer to all our woes? Don't they see the violent reaction to this unnatural state of existence? I shiver for the future, for our youth has no anchor of stability.

# posted by Anonymous : 5/26/2005

Hozen, you are constantley repeating what you said in your ealier post and on other blogs.

I have asked would you please lay out a step by step solution. Would please, please show me a better society.

Your response is that you don't know any solutions. You sound like the NYT that Pres. Bush quoted in his state of the union speach (not sure exactly what speach) after WWII how bad the allies are handling the situation and how it will get worse. Same thing today with the media. The us has prevailed then and they will prevail today. You sound like Dan Rather.

Would you go to a doctor who says I don't know how to fix your problem, but first let me cut you open. I'll try this I'll try that maybe it will be better.

This is how you sound. Can you explain how your suggestions, if you have any, will help Judaism?

Anon, you are the one who is ignorant. Do you think that TV makes one educated? Just watch out for the youth today or even the yout of the 60-70s when TV grew up.

You are just ignorant to the facts and statisitcs. It seems that you are still in yeshiva, you have never dealt with the outside world.

I don't want want to write to much about myself, but I work with goyim and I know as much as you know about the outside wrold.


"Your response is that you don't know any solutions."

SOLOMON,

You have a point.
I don't have the magical solution to reconstruct the framework and foundation of our society.
I can not single-handedly get rid of those "leaders" who claim to worship Hashem yet bow down to the idol of green.
I can not change a Chinuch system that caters to the minority while neglecting and even shunning the majority.
A system that believes in eradicating talents and skills that don't fit their mold.
I can not change a school system that is bend on producing mass productions and carbon copies.
Girls that were never thought how to question or think.
Girls whose brains are empty, save for the skills of dressing up to kill.
A pit can never be empty.
If there ain't no water, there will be scorpions.
I can not change a shidduch system whose definition of compatibility is a left boot with a right glove.
And neither can I stop parents and teachers from Bsing and bluffing to their children, pretending that their Rebbe is second only to Moshe Rabenu.

KingSolomon,
I'm a Grad school student, second year.
I will be joining the force soon.
Maybe one day God-willing, I will succeed in making a little difference, perhaps a tiny little dent.

# posted by Hoezentragerin : 5/26/2005

Hozen, apparently you are not going for a science degree. I have a science degree and I was taught that before you come to any conclusion you have to analyze all available data first. Then come up with a solution.

You are not doing this. If you were objectively looking at this you would say nobody knows how to handle this. US, Europe, Africa, Middle East, all religions, and all societies, everybody has problems, huge problems. In the past there were problems, no body ever had a solution. But Hosen is going to somehow get a grip on this.

There is nothing wrong in trying to correct something that no one has ever done. Otherwise, we wouldn’t fly planes etc. However, you must first identify what exactly is wrong.

Can you do a scientific paper on this subject? As a grad student you should know what it entails.

I can do a paper, in fact I was going to do it and start my blog with it, but I don’t have the time for it. If my research assignment took me at least 60 hours of research, I expect this to take that long and I cannot afford it.

can I ask you to take one issue at a time and have a disscussion about it.

If you would show me what is wrong with the shiduch system I will show what is wrong with a non-shiduch system.

Lay out all the problems and how a different way resolves these problems. Real analysis.

# posted by shlomohamelech : 5/26/2005


"Hozen, apparently you are not going for a science degree. "

My major is in what they call a soft-science.
We are instructed to use qualitative analyses as often as we apply the quantitative measure.


"You are not doing this. If you were objectively looking at this you would say nobody knows how to handle this. US, Europe, Africa, Middle East, all religions, and all societies, everybody has problems, huge problems. In the past there were problems, no body ever had a solution."

Who cares about the rest of the world?
I'm talking about the Chasidishe Community.
We, who are "supposedly" the cream of the crop, the holiest of the holy.
Things weren't perfect 20 years ago either.
But my point, and the point of many other commenters is that the situation is tumbling downhill, and fast.

"If you would show me what is wrong with the shiduch system I will show what is wrong with a non-shiduch system."
I was not comparing the Shidduch system to the non-shidduch system.
I was bewailing a system whose first interest is NOT the compatibility and happiness of the young couple.

On a difffferent note,
You comparing our society to the African Americans, indicates that you too share many of my worries and sentiments.

# posted by Hoezentragerin : 5/26/2005

 
At 10:05 PM, Blogger AnotherNYJew said...

You could have just posted a link!

 
At 10:15 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

Lol NYJew you're right.
Guess I first have to become a "geek" just like you to think of it. :)

 
At 11:26 PM, Blogger ch chick said...

MG
I did happen to read "The Romance Writer" and remember the book as being very frankly a thinly veiled biography. I read in amazement about how her father had a Shul on Ph??? Terrace in "Monhegen"...I remember feeling sorry for her mother becuase of the openess of what Pearl Abrahams wrote about her and their life, even though I could totally relate to Pearl.

I don't know what the solution is for Chassidishe communities. What I know is that when the Goyim sink to low levels so do the Yidden. What goes on in their world is reflected in ours. Sooner or later this baseness has crept into Williamsburg and all other frum areas and has corrupted their tmimus and purity.

I believe that children and teens that show the slightest degree of "differentness" from their peeers have to be handled with kid gloves. They should be encouraged with Chesed and not Gevurah. One must be Mekarev them, not Merachek them. They have to be reached in a way that they will accept, in a non-judgemental and open manner. Not pressure. Hopefully they will come around and realize that a "frie" life on the outside is not better than what they would like to give up. We have to try and catch them when they are still quietly rebelling, before they fall into the trap of treifus and chillul shabbos, sex and drugs..
Every community has to have some sort of organized "crisis intervention" team that is paid full time to reach out to these youngsters at risk and pull them off the street, talk to them, entertain the, feed them, whatever it takes for them to realize that the frum world is worth staying in.

 
At 11:33 PM, Blogger chayala said...

MG,
Sadly, yes, I have heard of Pearl Abraham, but I have not read her books. Interestingly, I just had this conversation with a friend of mine, who has a sister in law in Willy. She was talking with her about her kids, and how they were "caught" reading secular books. she told her s.i.l. to PLEAAAAASE take the kids to either a jewish bookstore or the library to pick out books for them. there is nothing wrong with reading what's on the NY Times bestseller's kids list, if it means that the kids won't feel compelled to go for other modes of entertainment behind their parents' backs.

I agree with the point you made of the curfew, 100%.I was not brought up chassidish, just regular bais yaakov hungarian... and so I cannot personally relate to the problems the chassidishe community has today. But a lot of my friends are still reeling from their own upbringings, struggling to find themselves, even today, as I type this, when they have 4 to 5 kids each, thank you very much! I can't see my friends screwing around, pardon my french, but I guess if a 15-year-old willy girl is giving birth to illegitemate twins, then you never do know.

Not to say that our the regular system doesn't have kinks in the chain, but it's just not comparable to the unique makeup of the chassidishe lifestyle.

 
At 12:06 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

ther is a concept , chanuch lanair al pe darchu or somthing like it a few shot of smirnoff i cant type straight. the underlying problem is , and yet understandable, the hanhalah of the community for lack of better terms, means the best for it's inhabitants. the problem here is they are still living is a little city of satumare in the carpathians they didn't yet realize that this is the " triefe medina" and they need to recalabrate the narrow mindedness that they have . i mean no disrespect in my comments. this is a big problem in all yiddishe circles. we are not the same generation that left mitzraim. there are constant stumbling blocks put infron of us. and we are tripping. the mere fact that we are constantly blogging is a simon of the changes that we face every day. it is no wonder that there those who crumble to the whims of secular society and wander off into other territories. every soul is precious. there is no excuse for the crap that is going on that will cause innocents to relinquish their heritage because they cave to the pressures of their upbringing. dont blame the 15 year old or the boys and girls in the sugar factory. blame the hanhala that imposes the concentration camp environment they are forced to live in. chassidus has beatiful things to offer. it should not be misconstrued with the falche lifestyle we have been forced to abide by. shit the booze is really kicking in.

 
At 12:08 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

hoez: whats up with the shabbos tshuva drasha?

 
At 1:23 AM, Blogger Me, Uncensored said...

Not Jewish but I totally agree with your post.

Interesting to see that your world, as well as mine, seeks to keep the girls in line and doesn't say a word to the boys who are getting these girls pregnant.

In the case of the 15 year old who gave birth to twins, I wonder if the father of those babies will be sent away, too -- or will he be allowed to stick around and continue life as normal, his good name still intact?

 
At 2:18 AM, Blogger Ke'evei Beten said...

There was a ruling a few years back by the "gedolim" in response to the growing number of married men who were going to prostitutes. The ruling stated that in order to keep the men more attracted to their wives, the women should remove their housecoats in the house.

I.e. rather than dealing with the problem at source the symptoms were treated. Also, the responsibility for fixing the situation was placed not on the sinners but on the victims.

I see the same thing here...
Rather than dealing with the problem of sexual abuse by turning to the adults, the community is thinking about how to prevent the children from getting into trouble.

Whilst I think a restrictive attitude is likely to create more problems, I think the real failure is the repression of open discussion of the issues and of facing up to them openly.

Non-frum society recognises the problems and their complexity and thus has some hope of dealing with them. Frum society doesn't.

 
At 3:53 AM, Blogger stillruleall said...

I was brought up in the out of town yeshvish world, we all got our hats at 13, didnt talk to girls, but for the most part we all had radios and watched movies, etc. I met my first girlfriend by telling my parents I was going to a guys house and then going to the parks to hang out. My parents found out and at first were furious (mostly that I lied). At that time I wouldnt dream of being shomer negia or breaking up or anything. After a while they accepted that I was dating and even invited her over. Only at that point was I able to look at the relationship more seriously, realize theres more to life then making out. After that I decided to become shomer and eventually we broke up. But until my parents were willing to accept that I was dating, the thrill of sneaking out and making out was too high to ever think of changing.
Another thing was with porn. Throughout junior high my friends and I always somehow got our hands on porn. To make a long story short, my mom found a magazine and sent me to my room til my father came home. I didnt know what was going to happen, but I was getting ready for a good argument. My dad came home, cam eot my room, and all he said was "The possuk says Kiddushim Tiyihu. There are things we want to do, things we may enjoy, but we cant. We have to be holy." That was it. So instead of me getting the big fight I'd wanted, I ended up feeling guilty. I'm not going to say I never looked at porn again, but I do feel that i stayed frum because of the way my parents handled me, never yelling at me, always discussing what I did, why it was bad, etc., and because they were very accepting.
I think if these kids are all going and making out, instead of avoiding the issue, they should discuss the dangers of casual sex, teach them the beauty of Judiasm, not just them the restrictions of Judiasm, be open with them. Even if they continue hooking up, its not the end of the world. I once heard that reading porn is just as bad as having sex with a prostitute. My initial reaction was, ok, I'd rather have the prostitute then the magazine. Once you make it seem that hooking up is the end of the world, then they may as well be having sex.

 
At 3:53 AM, Blogger stillruleall said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 5:21 AM, Blogger Ke'evei Beten said...

stillruleall

two good points - good handling of a matter will usually lead to a better resolving... your parents faced up to the attractiveness of the porn/making out and put the responsibility on you to act. also, your last point, once everything is reduced to total good/bad then any possibility of real discussion is lost. a more nuanced discussion can provide for better resolution... and for sure it doesn't create a situation where those being accused of doing wrong are alienated by those who don't understand what is going on.

 
At 9:01 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

I'm going to come off as really naive, but is it really so commom that heimishe guys go to prostitutes? it's one thing if a single guy and girl get it on. (MG George michael) but are there that many married guys going? half the blogs i read they complain they dont know anything about sex and now not only do they have a wife and kids ( where did they come from?) they are running around with hookers. is ti the thrill? is your wives so bad? Guys put some cash on the night stand at home before you leave in the morning.

 
At 9:41 AM, Blogger cruehead said...

What concerns me the most is the fact that nobody has really mentioned the worse one of all, the fact that the a girl was abused by her father and isint a virgen anymore. i understand that premarital sex in the chassidem community is frowned upon. People just have to realize that it will happen and there are consequences, but nobody says anything about this poor girl? How about the crime commited against her? and the father who should be punished?
I am only one of two people that is non-Jewish in the company i work for in Manhatten, and when I bring this topic up i might as well have horns on my head. Placing restrictions on childeren is almost like letting the problem into the house. Parents-no matter what religeous backround need to be more tolerant of youth in a ever changing world. While the traditions are rich in history, we must be tolerant about the world we live in and not be ashamed or embarressed by the choices we make.

 
At 11:35 AM, Blogger NotStamaGuy said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 11:37 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

not stam. if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. why go where you are not welcome?

 
At 1:01 PM, Blogger oyveyizmeernisht said...

Notstam: it seems that you have a well working thesaurus at hand, or maybe it’s just that you like Shakespeare. Nock it off!!

About the twins, I cannot corroborate this. The abortion story, however, I know it to be true as well as a lot of the other shmutz going on in the holy city of Willy. I myself have seen older bochurim awaiting teenage girls outside simcha halls Friday nights. I have seen them following girls, hooking up with them and yes hanging out with them. Not because I’m a pervert, but because the chutzpah goes as far as some them not even giving a rat’s ass to conceal their doings.

I’m no educator here, but the way things are now, the future does look grim. Keep one more thing in mind that whatever you do hear about and see is just the tip of the iceberg.

 
At 1:10 PM, Blogger survivor said...

MG, great post, I think many can relate to it since many of us have had some sort of bad experience when it comes to our frum upringings. I was one of those kids who reached a point of feeling strangled by the system. I was mad at my parents for being so closed minded & I hated them for their narrow way of thinking. Looking back though, I really think (for the most part) they meant well. Yeah they made mistakes, but everyone does.

 
At 2:14 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

Notstom,
Were you ever diagnosed with Aspberger's Syndrome?
It's scary the way you fit that profile to the tee.

 
At 2:20 PM, Blogger Banker said...

How low does someone has to sink to believe the twin story. MG not even for a good fiction or the Enquirer your stories makes sense.you stating Facts after facts and all here go crazy and comment with their own stories boy oh boy how did i came upon this trashy blog.
Yes there is problems in the entire frum community as the saying goes:"Vi si goish tzich azoi Yiddish zich" But trash like this only people with real hate would claim to believe .Please MG you write well so come up with something good not with Herman Gobbles stuff the bigger the lie the more will believe

 
At 2:34 PM, Blogger cynic said...

banker
i dont know where u live but certainly not on planet earth

 
At 2:48 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

Hey Banker,
Funny you should mention Herman Gobbles in your comment because I was thinking along these lines too.

You remind me of the naive Hungarians who reacted to the Polish refugees who escaped and warned them about the genocide taking place in the East, the same way you are doing.

History is repeating itself I guess.

 
At 3:10 PM, Blogger cynic said...

notstam
talking of potholes me thinks your front end hit one

 
At 5:14 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to Hoizen,
you write,
"Just to give you a little picture, they just came up with a new takana there.
Since teenage girls should not be "drien zich in the gasen" girls should not be going to their friend's sister's weddings any more.
Brilliant solution.
They got mice, so they are covering up the cake."

Isn't it just awful what's happening?? It's frightening.....to be a parent nowadays and have to worry that your teenager might fall in with friends that go and do....
The Rabbanim are TOO LATE!! Way too late. They should have realized years earlier that the strictness and harshness they imposed was going to bust ...and now it did.
I wonder where it will lead...

 
At 5:18 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

To Moishe Q and all you guys on MY side...
Thanks for telling Notstam off.. Is that man annoying or what??
If he had something of value to add to the blog, that would be one thing, but he's a deeply disturbed person.......and he feels the need to give his critique always. Gee, if he had children, they would be "teens at risk", don't you think?

 
At 5:27 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to Cynic..
Same here. I know I was loved by my parents, but there was no warmth.
Tense is also a good way to describe my childhood. I was always criticized by my father (my mother just kept quiet - remember, she walked me down the chupa, and years later, I asked her how she could do such a thing when she knew how miserable I was, and her answer? "Tati made me do it"
I would have grown up happier and more secure about myself if things had been done the right way. My self image would have been better. I think that I might have been more religious. I'm religious on the outside, but inside there's always a little rebellion. Had I had a warm atmosphere, with things explained to me - why this is a din, why we do this or that - and not the yelling "Because" just because, and being called a shiksa by my father, because I wanted some answers, and I didn't get them, I would have the total absolute committment to the chasidishe way of life.

 
At 5:40 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

To Stillruleall...
you write;
"My dad came home, came into my room, and all he said was "The possuk says Kiddushim Tiyihu."

Do you realize what a special father you have??

I have tears in my eyes reading this. I wish my father would have been like this; instead of spitting at me and cursing me for having these magazines - to sit down and with kindness, tell me right from wrong. A parent like yours is a treasure!

 
At 5:44 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to Kvetcher;
About chasidishe men going to prostitutes.
A friend of mine thought she had a good marriage - one day, on the cover of THE NEW YORK POST, she saw a picture of her husband, and another frum man, arrested in Sunset Park, for soliciting prostitutes.....
She's happily remarried now!

 
At 5:47 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to Kvetch.
you write to the walking dictionary,
"not stam. if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. why go where you are not welcome? "
MY MAN - I salute you!! If we could only meet notstam in a dark alley....ahhh, what we could do to him.........

 
At 5:49 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

"oyveyizmeernisht said...
Notstam: it seems that you have a well working thesaurus at hand, or maybe it’s just that you like Shakespeare. Knock it off!!"

I LOVE YOU!!! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.

 
At 5:52 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Hoizen
Hoezentragerin said...
Notstom,
Were you ever diagnosed with Aspberger's Syndrome?
It's scary the way you fit that profile to the tee.

YOU MADE ME LAUGH OUT LOUD!! THANK YOU! AND BY THE WAY, YOU REALLY HAVE A WAY WITH WORDS, AND ARE VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE IN ALL AREAS..

 
At 5:56 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

BANKER,
What's wrong with you? Are you living in this community? Do you not know that this is true - so unfortunately?
C'mon, man - grow up - this is what is happening, and it's a major cause for concern. And we worry and daven that our children do not fall victim to the glitter of the goyishe world!!
Thank G-D, we are more aware than our parents were, and we are trying to be understanding parents, talk to the kids, listen to their concerns, explain, not lecture. Are you living in the land of Oz??

 
At 6:03 PM, Blogger FoncusedYid said...

The bottom line is: For the best 25 years there was only way of CHINUCH in the heimishe schools " do it my way or i'll beat yiou up" "Do it my way or god is gonna cut your fingers when you come up after 120" Everything was done out of fear there was no "Love" involved in anything, so once the kids grow up (myself included) you automaticlly rebel. I picked up my first prostitute when i was 19 yrs old, not because i really knew much about sex, just because the famous clinton once said "I could". and my whole life since the age of 12 all i heard was "Zera lebatala" So in other words every one in the community can still and fight and i cant squeeze my member?? and thats how the cycle begins (at least for me, and many friends i know)When they will learn that we are in a different world today and you dont build a jewish neshame based on fear, maybe things will change.

Just my opinion

 
At 6:26 PM, Blogger Moishe Q. Public said...

If Notstam had kids, yes, they'd be at risk. But since he obviously does not have a dick, it won't happen. (apologies to Kiki ...)

 
At 6:28 PM, Blogger NotStamaGuy said...

Unfortunately, for just about all of you, you don't begin to understand the issues involved. You are very from having an inkling of what's at the heart of the matter. And your motivation for engaging in this discussion is entirely spurious.
Shabbat Shalom

 
At 6:38 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

To Moishe........
YOU WRITE,
"Moishe Q. Public said...
If Notstam had kids, yes, they'd be at risk. But since he obviously does not have a dick, it won't happen. (apologies to Kiki ...)"
HYSTERICAL!!! I LOVE IT!! LOVE IT! HOW TRUE.

 
At 6:52 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to Me - Uncensored.
Thanks for visiting my blog.
I don't know what religion you are, but I always wonder about Catholics; Sin - and go to confession - and for 3 Hail Mary's all is forgiven? hmmm....doesn't work that way here.

 
At 6:59 PM, Blogger cynic said...

A friend of mine thought she had a good marriage - one day, on the cover of THE NEW YORK POST, she saw a picture of her husband, and another frum man, arrested in Sunset Park, for soliciting prostitutes.....

that must have been some post mortem

 
At 7:15 PM, Blogger Moishe Q. Public said...

MG: The apologies should have been to you ...
Oy, candle time ...

 
At 7:24 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

To Cynic
you write;
"that must have been some post mortem"

You can just imagine it; she almost had a breakdown! But Hashem rules - and it was a Gam Zu L'tovah. With him, she did not have children, although they tried, for years. When she remarried, she had several children, and so, of course, she is happier, and the current husband is a true blessing for her.
Sometimes, what we think is terrible, is not terrible, and sometimes, what we think is good, is not good....

 
At 10:04 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

MG your catching up to him

 
At 5:02 AM, Blogger Duude said...

I don't know about you people, I'm not meaning to undermine the BIg problem, but why couldn't they all just use a condom? I'm a teenager, I came from a chasidishe home, thank god we were more open at home, so I got out of that way of life, but I'm definitely not as religious as I would have been if stayed being a "chasidishe bucher" but then again I would just be an ignorant oaf, knowing nothing about the world nor would I know anything about my own religion, bottom line is, when u screw around with girls: ALWAYS USE A CONDOM!

 
At 6:08 AM, Blogger killabendel said...

Yea Dude .Just give every parent a heart attack.Why dont you crawl back into the hole you came from.

 
At 8:08 AM, Blogger Kiki said...

My kids are still very young (under 10) but already know that they can talk to us about any subject under the sun, that we are here to help them, not judge them. We are here to guide them in the right direction - with love and respect. Shame - a big thing in many of these types of families - doesn't enter the equation.

I was brought up with a very strict home, no rules were allowed to be broken - but they were parental rules. We kept shabbat and kashrut (although I came to learn later, not properly) but I was not allowed to date boys. I had a curfew of 11. I always said - what you think I can only have sex after 11, if I wanted to I could have it before. That earned me a smack.

If you respect your children, and guide them to figure out their own path and allow them to walk down it without fear, but with your support, then these kids will have a chance to grow up properly.

I have seen chassidim talking with prostitutes with my own eyes, 6 am in the morning by Kings Cross Station, while my boss drove me to work. It happens.

Apparently there are a few women in teh chassidishe community here suffering from AIDS and they have no clue how they contracted it. The husbands wont use a condom with a prostitute - and they infect their wives. Selfish bastards.

OK I am getting upset here. Communication between parents and children is the key.

 
At 9:23 AM, Blogger NotStamaGuy said...

The real truth is, your parents were far too lenient with you. They didn't impose nearly the amount of discipline you needed. That's why you grew up rebelling against them, against your community, and against everything goodness and decency stand for. They were lax and indifferent, diverting their attention to other things. No doubt it was because of the toll their suffering had taken on their own lives and stability. If you had had some real structure in your lives growing up, you would have attained to maturity and developed into useful members of society. Alas, this was denied you. And now the consequences are so patent as to hang out there for all to see. You epitomize self-centeredness in a way unknown in the anals of history. It's the real ME-generation with you, wherever you go! This is what this blog and its blogger are all about. Where does the shamelessness end? I urge you ladies to disband and cease operations instantly (the children were automatically follow suit). Go back to congregating on a street corner (Penn/Lee?) and carrying on your escapades there.

 
At 9:33 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

not staam why dont you expose yourself? tell us did you grow up in these circumstances and over comethem? or are you just being a judgmental pain in the ass? hoe do you you know why these things happen. we are all only human. good job to the guy with the condom. maybe your parents should have used one too.

 
At 10:01 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

clarification: i meant to say, not staams parents should have used the condom not the guy who said he used one.

 
At 11:11 AM, Blogger Kiki said...

notstam guy - where on earth do you get off judging the blogger and her blog? Are you God?

If you have nothing nice to say,say nothing. Every post you write has nasty overtones, you belittle everyone - does that make you feel like a man? I bet you can't even get it up!

 
At 11:22 AM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to NOTSTAM
Now you've gone too far!
Insulting my parents.....

bloggers - is there any way that I can force this guy away from here.
Not allow HIS shit to hit my blog??
Let's band together and get him off his soap box!!
I MEAN IT!

 
At 11:28 AM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Kiki.........
You've really been a witness to chasidishe guys talking to prostitutes? Wow - I wish I had been there.
You know ....you hear it, and hear it, and I believe it totally - but I've never witnessed it. You know what I would have done? Gotten out of my car, walked over to the "chosid" and told him (in yiddish, cause that would make more of an impact) that he should get the hell away from there, that he should be ashamed of himself, that he has at home, a loyal wife who is raising his large family (no doubt) and that lightening will strike hime dead!!

 
At 11:29 AM, Blogger ifuncused said...

My heart goes to the two litthe neshamos that we have lost. I am assuming that they were given up for adoption in the secular world and not in the Jewish world. SO the twins might never know that they are indeed Jewish.

To the poor young mother who was sent away from her babies. Do you think she wont feel anything for them due to her age? Why can't her parents raise them as their own? Why ruin more lives?


The Kallah who was molested and raped by her father. I am crying very hard for her. To decide whether or not to tell her choson? Her father will never allow it

To the girl with the abortion, what a shame to scar your body like that and get nothing.

To think that these people will grow up and be normal. To think that these girls will forget their issues when they start their own family. The respect and love that they were missing growing up.
why why why

 
At 11:31 AM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

To NOTSTAM...
..........and YOUR parents were not lenient enough! They should have immediately seen what a monster they created and have you committed. OR ....as Kvetcher says, one wonders why they didn't use a condom to begin with and spare the world!

 
At 11:31 AM, Blogger cynic said...

kiki
and u thought i was nasty
as far as him getting it up check with the rebbitzen in the gay shtiebel

 
At 11:38 AM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to foncused.
You are so right, and your heart is in the right place. These poor girls - they were so restricted; they wanted a bit of fun; they are children and naturally did not think of all the consequenses, and now - a lifetime of angst.
Why is it, that such a girl, with a lively spirit, cannot talk to her parents? Because her parents don't want to hear anything ;
except "Did you davenn yet" -"Your stockings are not thick enough" - "No, you can't go to the circus - it's goyish" - "Fun? you want to have some fun? I'll show you what fun is, go help your mother peel the potatoes"
WHO WOULDN'T WANT TO GET OUT THERE, AND MAYBE FEEL A LITTLE LOVE ( OR WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS LOVE)

 
At 12:00 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to Cruehead
You make a very good point....
and one of the problems in our community is that the parents want to stick their heads into the sand and pretend nothing happened.
Just leave it alone and it will go away.....but we know it doesn't.

 
At 12:04 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

To Me, Uncensored ......
Isn't that something? The boys get off with a "boys will be boys" attitude - they may be lectured a bit, and told to concentrate harder on their studies...... the father of the twins? Nobody has said "booh" (I think) and it is HER reputation that became dirt, not the boy who sweet talked her into it....

 
At 12:06 PM, Blogger Moishe Q. Public said...

MG, Kiki, and others:
Stop responding to notstamaguy. Like an obscene caller, he probably jerks off while reading comments that show he gets a response. He is most likely completely ignored in real life and this is how he gets off. Very sad, but you MUST ignore him completely. This will probably set him off, sorry for that. But he is just a low-life troll and MG deserves MUCH better on her blog.

 
At 12:17 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to Banker.....
"boy oh boy how did i came upon this trashy blog."
Those are your words, right??? and again you write;
" trash like this only people with real hate would claim to believe"

Banker ......We don't HATE - we LOVE our religion, and that's what makes it so sad. How can we revert to the yiddishkeit of the past generations? Those wonderful pious men and women who are no longer here? There must be a way, and we are searching, and in the course of searching, we come upon these real stories - REAL STORIES!
This pains us, not pleasures us!! We have children ! We want to continue the legacy of the great chasidim and yidden who were so devoted to Hashem and the good ness that HE made. We are simply trying to learn from the mistakes, to take away something important, so that we can try to improve and save ourselved and our children!
Thank you for the compliment on my writing skills. I appreciate it - I will try for more levity, sure, but this is important! I'm not the National Enquirer trying to sell papers with lurid headlines!
Please understand that.

 
At 12:19 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Moishe Q. Public - CYBER-HUG TO YOU

 
At 12:44 PM, Blogger oyveyizmeernisht said...

Notstom:

interesting analysis you have going here that our parents were all too lenient with us. Do you call getting beaten up for the slightest transgression too lenient? Or maybe that some people who respond here never heard a loving kind word out of their parent’s mouth, never. Do you know that there are some people here, including myself, who fear their parents to this very day, although the abuse has ceased? Being around their abuse for twenty years can’t yield any different result.

Is that what you call ultra-leniency???

Can you even imagine what it means for a child, tender and innocent, to come home to an environment where he has no love, no support, and no psychological stimulation?

I don’t know what your agenda here is; I can only think that you are probably no different than us, up to the point of coming out of the closet. After all didn’t you just love when your father beat the crap out of you with such loving tenderness, when you were this tiny defenseless six-year-old?

I mean come on; if you want to lecture us on the point of view that preaching about the ailing education system in the chasidish communities on the internet blogs is not the right thing to do, maybe we can hear you out. We are trying to be open-minder here but not the extent to which you’re taking it. How else can you explain the changed attitude to disciplining children through means of corporal punishment? It is B”H not accepted anymore in mainstream cheders; why do you think that is? Is it because that those who set policy feel that it’s too lenient, or maybe because the cries echoing throughout the blogsphere has reached their ears?

 
At 12:48 PM, Blogger oyveyizmeernisht said...

Margarita: I myself have seen a chaidish yingerman, a middle aged guy, probably in his late thirties early forties pleading with what seemed to be a prostitute. It was one afternoon in the Greenpoint neighborhood next to Williamsburg. I was driving around, and boy oh boy did I ever have a kick out of it.

 
At 1:03 PM, Blogger cynic said...

as to guy that goes to a prostitute,maybe it was that time of the month at least he is not having affair.
i hope that for him and his family's sake that he is practicing safe sex.
however if he does this on a regular basis he should seek professional help.

 
At 1:20 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to OYVEI.....
You must have been my next door neighbor, who peeked into our window when my father was "disciplining" his children with ....love....

 
At 1:24 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

OYVEY.......
As far as witnessing the chasid and the prostitute......In between getting "A kick out of it" did you also feel ashamed at the chillul hashem? Remember - there are so many good guys in our community too. So many. It's such a shame that the public will only remember the tawdry, and not the "t'mimosdike" men that are abundant also.
It hurts me to see that.

 
At 1:26 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

CYNIC......
SO WHAT IF IT WAS "THE TIME OF THE MONTH"? THE WIFE HAS NEEDS TOO, AND THEY SHOULD BOTH PRACTICE SELF CONTROL TOGETHER!

 
At 1:30 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

kVETCHER,
Wasn't it Marvin Gaye? Not George Michael? - Get it On

 
At 1:47 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

TO: ch chick
how did you react to Pearl Abraham's books (she's written 3, so far) I know that what she's written is true, because I know someone, who knew her when.....
This is one of the things that can happen in a very strict home. In her book, too, the mother was the silent follower of the father's wishes. "FATHER KNOWS BEST" so to speak.
Chayala, you said you heard of her, but had not read her. The library has her books, Read them and tell me your impression - all I can say, is that it struck a chord with me - deeply.

 
At 1:56 PM, Blogger oyveyizmeernisht said...

Margarita: I consider myself a pretty compassionate person. However, to tell you the truth, I don’t know if I felt/feel bad for such a person, for all the commiseration that I could muster up directed themselves toward his innocent wife (?) and children. Of course you are right about the great people in our communities; however, their innocence is not the epitome of virtue, as some of look like a “tam” but kick like a “miud.”

It is those who can keep an open mind although they grew up with an education that preached hate, which I admire. It is those that know that they carry the name “yid” on them, and they act accordingly. Not those who think they are superior to others because they belong to one sect or another, and therefore they take the liberty to put-down, belittle, and spread hate on those whom they deem unworthy.

I must tell you, I recently spent a shabbos in Williamsburg; the hate which spills through those streets on a regular basis is unbelievable; and all in the name of the stupid eruv. L’shem Shomaim. Women are being harassed to extents that you will not see in other places; men and bochurim act with such malice that there’s no way to claim that this is how a People, a Chosen People, should act.

I have seen their evil side; it hurts me to have to say that they are full of hate, some of them through and through. What else is to blame if not the education system?

Is it, after all this, still a wonder why the profits of bars and strip clubs are subsidized with yiddishe money? Those people never saw the sun crack through their miserable lives; they have no idea that enjoying life is actually permissible. And when their hearts pleas overwhelm them, they just slip into oblivion. They were never taught that some things are actually permissible, and that even though you want to enjoy yourself you do not have to lower yourself to the point of no return.

If being involved in any stimulating activity, although it’s not assur, is frowned upon, what else should these people do to fill the void? It usually ends in one of two ways: either hate, “sinas chinum,” or going off the derech. Sad thing is that both have reached unprecedented prevalence.

 
At 2:58 PM, Blogger cynic said...

mg
u are correct they should pratice restraint,however in most cases the males sex drive is a lot stronger than the females.
i am not condoning his behavior,i'm just postulating why its happening

 
At 3:07 PM, Blogger Banker said...

Hozen,
All i was commenting was on the twin story i agreed on problems in the Jewish community.
Perhaps you should tell us what's going on in Lakewood where its not as strict.
Is that famous hotel/motel still open for business? I'm sure you know what i am referring to

 
At 3:12 PM, Blogger cynic said...

r u banker or bangher?

 
At 3:15 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

To MG and all my fellow bloogers.
To blame the situation in Willytown on just parents who are over restrictive and overbearing is to sort of simplifying the problem.
There are so many other factors involved.
Very often, the parents are not even to blame.

 
At 3:19 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

Banker,
Funny you should post just now when I did.
Read my comment.
I am NOT blaming the situation on one factor, re, strict parenting.
There is much more to it.
If you really care to hear my take on it, read the long post I from Frummer's blog.
I never stept into ier hakodesh lakewood.
But I did grow up in Willy not that long ago.
Trust me when I say it's bad.

 
At 3:22 PM, Blogger cynic said...

hoizen
my take from reading all your comments that its the leadership thats at fault.
am i correct?

 
At 3:30 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

Copy and paste from Frummer.

I don't have the magical solution to reconstruct the framework and foundation of our society.
I can not single-handedly get rid of those "leaders" who claim to worship Hashem yet bow down to the idol of green.
I can not change a Chinuch system that caters to the minority while neglecting and even shunning the majority.
A system that believes in eradicating talents and skills that don't fit their mold.
I can not change a school system that is bend on producing mass productions and carbon copies.
Girls that were never thought how to question or think.
Girls whose brains are empty, save for the skills of dressing up to kill.
A pit can never be empty.
If there ain't no water, there will be scorpions.
I can not change a shidduch system whose definition of compatibility is a left boot with a right glove.
And neither can I stop parents and teachers from Bsing and bluffing to their children, pretending that their Rebbe is second only to Moshe Rabenu.

Not the parents, not only the "leadership," it's the total system that sucks.

 
At 3:49 PM, Blogger oyveyizmeernisht said...

Hozentragerin: Ditto to posting the words of frummer. Frummer: right on target!!

 
At 4:21 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

Those Are actually my words on frummer's blog.

 
At 4:43 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

TO ALL:
Reading all the latest comments, I DO have to add one thing, which is being discussed on my blog;

IT IS NOT ONLY THE FAULT OF THE PARENTING SYSTEM -
It's the fault of the community, their leaders, AND the parents. The parents are afraid of public scrutiny..."oh, this one is going to know that you're reading books" or "how am I going to justify to the neighbors that you want to go to college? What will the ruv, rebitzen say to me, that my daughter wants to work in a manhattan office, where she can see/rub shoulders with /work alongside, someone from the outside world? "Oy- if you keep this up, I'll have to explain your belly (preg)
I grew up like that; When I go to Williamsburg, to my parents, I still attract stares and whispers. Why? Because I drive? because I dress stylishly? (although modestly) Recently I was taking a walk with my mother on a Friday night in Williamsburg, and a group of women in front of us, just stood there staring, openmouthed! I twirled for them, and said, "Hey, why don't you take a picture - it'll last longer!"
My mother, of course, shushed me quietly and we continued our walk.
So where did it start.......what came first, the chicken or the egg? Who put up a new set up the ten commandments? Is this what Hashem wants from us? The hate, the cruel comments, that even the children are learning to use to strangers. Little boys with peyos down to ther waist, kick my car and say (in yiddish) "a lady is not supposed to drive - you are a shiksa?"
and yet, and yet, and yet......I love my parents, I love chasidus, but WHO made it like this? Why was it made like this? What good can it do like this?
A YIDDISHE PERSON IS AN ADVERTISEMENT TO THE WORLD....THAT THIS IS THE WAY, THAT WE ARE HUMBLE, WE ARE KIND, WE RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE, ETC.....our ad agency is not doing a good job!

 
At 5:35 PM, Blogger NotStamaGuy said...

"When I go to Williamsburg, to my parents, I still attract stares and whispers. Why? Because I drive? because I dress stylishly? (although modestly)"

Why do you insist on making a splash? Why must you make a spectacle of yourself when you go somewhere? Haven't you heard? "When in Rome do as the Romans do!" Don't you think you owe your host community a little respect? It's not as though they came to Boro Park and hounded you out there!

 
At 5:37 PM, Blogger LostSpirit said...

Go girl go. I think that last comment of yours is worthy of being a blog in its own right, and should be hung in all shul’s. But the question of what yes is a very good one. We all know that the way the “system” is now is not the answer for many of the young, but what is the middle way, what should the ones who are not happy with the way things are within do with there kids. There are no “middle” institutions, do we really have no choice but just sit back and hope that by the time our kids have kids there will be a decent 3rd way? Does the fact that things are falling apart help us in any way. You tell me is by that meeting anybody really came to the realization that things have to change fundamentally or where they just looking for a better messenger on how to get across the same old massage.

 
At 5:45 PM, Blogger cynic said...

mg
notgoy is pushing your buttons just ignore

 
At 5:49 PM, Blogger cynic said...

correction notstamagoy

 
At 5:55 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

Hey NotStamaGoof,
Whatever happened to your thesaurus?

 
At 5:59 PM, Blogger Moishe Q. Public said...

Ignore the loser. Maybe he'll crawl back in his hole. Or cave.

 
At 7:00 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

MG: do you remember the movie the falcon and the snow man? the theme song, tell me what it was. take out the word America. replace it with williamsburg. see how it plays out.
to the Hiliger reb YOM Tov Ehrlich which ever world you are in, you need to fix your great wiili song. we can help if you want.
TO ALL BLOGGERS we also need to be proactive to the situation. in so many other segments of yiddishkite there are people who really care about the future of klal yisroel. they speak to the leaders and demand change from them they have created organizations that deal with these problems. and one more thin, if there truley was a girl that had ywins at 15. big deal she would have been married any way in 2 years to someone she despised. they should have made her marry the guy who knocked her up and let them keep the babies. i bet that they all would have turned out wonderful in the end.

 
At 7:53 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

MG if i may invade you space for a minute? my blogger friends as i wrote somewhere else in the bloggesphere " it is very important that one does not CONFUSE the concept of CHASSIDUS with the current lifestyle of the CHASSIDishe people. the basic concept of chassidus it to enjoy life and rejoice in the world of hashem as long as we serve him with all our hearts. also to be able to take every mundane thing and find a way to raise it up to a ruchnious level from gashmiuos. where does it say that a woman cant drive a car, who said that marriges must be forced, who said you need to wear a winter coat in august. the list goes on of self inflicted chumras that is portraying itself as what the Baal SHem set out to conceive. as MG has mentioned and so may others the concept has so much to offer. I can tell you all that when a person who is a baal tshuva becomes frum and wants to take on the chassidishe way of life it is not for the Nuremberg shtissim that goes on in the world. he or she wants to be able to serve the bashefer with a level that is not of this world. my friends if you are not happy, dont let a few mere humans rob you of your heritage. just like the famous story of the Baal shem when he killed a wolf yadda yadda. he proclaimed "i have only to fear the rebbono shel olum." no rabbi who portrays himself as Darth Vader and the evil empire is going to ruin it for me and shouldn't for you.

 
At 11:20 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to Kvetcher,
You mean the song "This is not America? replace with This is not Williamsburg........ok.....interesting!

 
At 11:22 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

TO ALL MY FRIENDS.....
I'M IGNORING HIM.....I'M IGNORING HIM...All of you have interesting and thought provoking comments - his is the only self-serving, mentally disturbed one....maybe he stopped taking his meds...hmmm?

 
At 11:24 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

A FRIEND TOLD ME THAT THIS LATEST POST OF MINE IS UNDER DISCUSSION ON THE JEWISH FORUM!!
http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/hydepark/topic.asp?topic_id=1405198

 
At 11:26 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

KVETCHER,
"CHASSIDUS with the current lifestyle of the CHASSIDishe people. the basic concept of chassidus it to enjoy life and rejoice in the world of hashem as long as we serve him with all our hearts"
YOU ARE SO RIGHT....IT'S CHASSIDUS THAT I LOVE....NOT THE WAY SOME PEOPLE ARE DISTORTING IT!

 
At 11:30 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Kvetch.......
Yom Tov Ehrlich....I loved him and I believed him then - when he sang..
Williamsburg - S'iz a mechaya gut,
Ess voinen dorten feina yidden, oif meir aza yur.
Williambsurg, ah mezuza oif yaida teir,
fill mit shira, feil mit yira......
Ahhh.....if only!

 
At 12:59 AM, Blogger queeniesmom said...

MG -
You've said so much that is so true.

Hopefully the Mom of the twins will be shown some compassion in Israel and not just sent off. Unfortunately, Israel is the "answer" to our problems. Be it pregnancy, drugs, not frum enough....

Hopefully the other girls will also find compassion and the girl who was abused will seek and/or be encouraged to seek conselling. it does exist in Wmsburg. Please try to have someone intervene - it is imperative for her and for her husband. He has no idea what he is dealing with. He's probebly a kid himself who has no or limited people skills due to his upbringing. This is a minefield and no one has considered the effect it will have on the children, the 1st of which should arrive w/in a year.

When are we going to stop the sinat hinam?? We seem to have entered an era of My rebbe's hat is blacker than yours and have invented our own Ayatollahs.This is playing out in our schools and in our communities. Everyone is moving further to the right and the right is coming out with these ideas that ignore reality.

Our children are suffering, they are being denied the freedom to interact with each other and lack the skills to make a living.We are keeping the poverty cycle going.

Who decided that having a job that pays is bad, that wearing anything but black,brown is asour? If you don't look like me its ok to cheat you? judgeing someone by their dress is ok? Al tihey dan yichid must not be taught in school anymore.

As "lost Spirit" said so eloquently we've become leemings. the problem with leemings is that if one goes off the cliff, they all go off the cliff.

Sorry about long post - between your post and frummer's post it was all I thought about for the last few days. We just finished L'G BaOmer and will soon have the 7 weeks can we not learn from our past???

Hoping for a better futer!

 
At 6:50 AM, Blogger NotStamaGuy said...

"A FRIEND TOLD ME THAT THIS LATEST POST OF MINE IS UNDER DISCUSSION ON THE JEWISH FORUM!!"

Hardly a mark of distinction.

 
At 9:39 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

THE NEW VERSION OF YIOM TOV EHRLICH’S NIGGUN. OR AT LEAST THE BEGINNING SUNG TO WILLIAMSBURG

WILLIAMSBURG, A SHTETELE FUN DRECK
KLIENA MAIDELECH GAIT MIT BABELECH
OY VEY WERE DOOM TO HECK.
WILLIAMSBURG, GAIT NISHT AROUS AFTER DARK.
YOU WILL BE ACCUSED OF FOOLING AROUND IN THE PARK.

YOU CANNOT LEAVE, YOU CANT GO FAR
YOU CANNOT DRIVE A CAR,
IF YOU DO, OY VEY SHAME ON YOU.

IF YOU LOOK AT A ENGLISH BOOK
YOU’LL BE WORSE THAN A CROOK.
AND YOU WILL GET ALL KINDS OF LOOKS.

WILLIAMSBURG, AT LEAST WE DON’T WEAR BOOTS,
BUT UNLIKE SKEVERE, EVERY WHERE YOU’LL FIND PROSTITUTES.
WILLIAMSBURG THE LADIES ARE ALL LOCKED IN,
IF PUSH YOUR STROLLER ON SHABBOS IT’S A BIG BIG SIN.

ZALMYS ARONIES, SALAMI BALONIES
WHO WANTS TO BE IN CHARGE
WHO CAN BE DRIVEN IN THE FANCIEST CAR.

DER REBBE VEIST NISHT
VOUS TITZICH
DER GABBAIS NEMMEN ALLE KVITLICH.
TIZ A TZITE FER A YESHUAH.

 
At 11:36 AM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

KVETCH....
C'mon....Let's be fair.
There ARE some good people in Williamsburg. While it's true that there are major problems and issues in that neighborhood, the key is to make people aware - not deride ALL of them.
How to get the message across to the leaders and the parents there, that's the dilemma..... or - is it too late?
and like the last line of your poem - IT IS TIME FOR A YESHUAH!!

 
At 12:19 PM, Blogger cynic said...

mg
dont fund the leaders, dont attend their functions.hit them in their pocketbooks that will get their attention

 
At 3:17 PM, Blogger oyveyizmeernisht said...

<::NEWS FLASH::>

Tonight: Another gathering about the ailing situation in Williamsburg. This time for MEN, in Ateres Avraham.

I guess the speakers will probably speak about everything, from sushi to shrimp, besides about what is important.

 
At 3:49 PM, Blogger cynic said...

mg
did u ever examine breslover (no pun intended)chasidus?
its the chasidus with out the guilt

 
At 6:45 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

oyveyizmeernisht said...
<::NEWS FLASH::>
Tonight: Another gathering about the ailing situation in Williamsburg. This time for MEN, in Ateres Avraham. I guess the speakers will probably speak about everything, from sushi to shrimp, besides about what is important.

ARE THEY REALLY HAVING A MEETING TONIGHT. WHOOO.......WONDER WHAT NEW LAWS AND BY-LAWS WILL BE DECREED NOW!

 
At 7:33 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

to CYNIC
I've heard of Breslover chasidim, and I think that they are "m'karev" all sorts of people. Is that true? Please give me some more details on them. I really would like to know.
Never know where the emunah renewed can come from!

 
At 8:30 PM, Blogger jsirpicco said...

At the risk getting YELLED AT...Jsirpicco can tell you guys, all you "insiders,"....Breslov yes, does mikarev people, but it isn't going to be the substitute CHASSIDUT you're looking for...frankly (and here come the tomatoes...) it's weird. So, no. Okay? Trust me on this one. The key in life - NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE OR WHERE YOU'RE FROM - is to be NORMAL (normal = mentally healthy, stable, productive, struggling to be happy, do the right thing, etc. etc. etc. Got it, NOTSTAM< YOU WEIRDO! You give BTs a BAAAAAAADDDD NAME! If only you were JOKING! But you're not....you actually think YOU"RE GOING TO HAVE AN EFFECT on people...)

Anyway: No on Breslov. Yes on Hashem. No on mindless conformity. Yes on not making unnecessary waves. No on NOTSTAMAGUY...YES ON JSIRPICCO...YEAH, BABY!

 
At 8:52 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

jsirpicco ....
You are too cool.....so tell me, what IS the answer?

 
At 9:38 PM, Blogger NotStamaGuy said...

"you actually think YOU"RE GOING TO HAVE AN EFFECT on people."

Evidently I'm having an effect on you, my boy...

 
At 9:41 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

thought you all might like this;
The Kosher Cellphone

Having read about the launch of new kosher mobile phone our columnist, investigates the innovation on behalf of our readers.
_________________________________________________________

Operator: Shalom. Welcome to Mirs - the makers of the new kosher phone. Please press one for an operator. If you are a yeshiva bochur please hang up now and wait for bein-hazmanim. Otherwise an operator will be with you shortly.

AS: Hello. I am calling to inquire about your new frum mobile for frum yiden who want to speak to frum people only. Can you tell me what you have?

Operator: Well, we have a new model that is under two different
hechscherim. The Aguda model bars all internet dialling except for
Dial-a-Daf and e-Daf. The Satmar hechsher will allow calls except for Dial-a-Daf and e-Daf.

AS: I live in London and I really would prefer a English hechsher. Do
you have any?
Operator: Well yes we have one sanctioned by the London Beth Din but the signal is rather weak after Spaniards Inn. lternatively, we may approach the Federation who maintain that anything the London Beth Din I can do they can do better.

AS: What about a Kedassia hechsher?

Operator: Well I am afraid not. If it has a London Beth Din seal of
approval we are not allowed, for reasons we do not fully understand, to use a Kedassia one as well.

AS: I see, so perhaps you can tell me a little about the different
models on offer?.

Operator: Well we have several models all equipped with our unique
optional anti-loshon hora device. If you speak loshon hora a loud bleep interrupts your flow which gets progressively louder until you stop. We have the walkie-talkie b'lechtecho baderech version and the off-peak
b'schochbecho u'vekumecho model and finally we have the one with a built in navigator which is called the al tirgezu badrech model. We even have a phone you can take into the mikva. It's call the Big Dipper and if it, is successful we may float the company.

AS: What about e-mail? In the US we have a very popular phone called the Blackberry which allows e-mails.
Operator: No sir I am afraid this phone was found to be infested with
little aphids and weevils and has therefore been banned. Having said
that, you can be sure that the radiation from our phones kills all flies and thrips as well as frying the users brain's that is unless you are Hungarian when you will have no problem. We named it the Super Duper Bodek model.

AS: How about different phone plans?

Operator: Sure. We have the bein odom l'chavero plan. We have the bein ish l'ishto plan which automatically disconnects as soon as she mentions shopping of any sort, and for regular shul goers the bein gavro l'gavro plan.

AS What happens if the phone rings during a shiur or even worse when you cannot be mafsik.
Operator: Ah sir, this is where the Mirs model really comes into its own. Our voice recognition facility allows you to mmmmmm and ah-ah-ah and the little chip will recognise what you really mean and will reply clearly to the caller in any language..

AS: Can I ask you why are they not available in the US yet?

Operator: Well to be honest there have been some very basic sha'alos
which need to be resolved. For instance, if you use your new kosher phone to order meat do you have to wait six hours before you call Charedi Dairies. Another problem is that there are some phones being manufactured in
India and we are in the process of sending out an expert to see if their stone statues talk to each other on mobiles. If it turns out that they do, chas v'sholom, then we have any number of little-known American rabbonim standing by ready to certify any possible model as European for a small consideration.
AS: What happens if I need one of those case things that clip on to your belt so that I look really important.

Operator: Well, we have several novelty models on sale. We have the
B'nei Brak and Williamsburg-Monroe versions styled in the shape of a pair of boxing gloves. We have alternative twin-pack versions for Klausenberg,Vishnitz and Belzer chassidim. I'm afraid however we have none for Lubavitch as there is some confusion whether it is operative.

 
At 11:46 PM, Blogger cynic said...

mg
breslovs main goal is to teach us is how to connect and communicate with hashem.
breslov is not about na nach nachmon nor is it about dancing in the streets,and nor is it about the guy who walks into every rest.,pizza store carrying 500 booklets under his arm pits.
i know that i have over simplified what breslov is or isnt
but this is not the forum to discuss it.there is an internet site and books published in english that will give u all the info that u desire.
ps im not a breslover chusid or a chusid of any particular sect.

 
At 12:06 AM, Blogger cynic said...

is there a stoliner model with volume control, a ben tzion model that looks good but doesnt function

 
At 10:19 AM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Cynic says......
"is there a stoliner model with volume control, a ben tzion model that looks good but doesnt function"
CYNIC - that's a good one!
on a serious note - I WOULD like to hear more about Breslov. I'm not the only one searching for the spark.....

 
At 10:50 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

I THINK ITS TIME FOR ME TO COME OUT OF THE CLOSET AND EXPOSE MY VERSION OF CHASSIDUS. NO MONEY UP FRONT AND NO SONS TO FIGHT WHEN IM GONE. ANYONE INTERESTED?

 
At 11:48 AM, Blogger cynic said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 1:27 PM, Blogger jsirpicco said...

MG -
Okay, I cyber luv you! Cuz you get it! Certain OTHER people out there are GET INSULTED OVER NOTHING! (Now, notstam- the "luv" I'm talking about is one that's teluia b'davar, which means, it's only dependent on this blog and has no connection to ACTUAL love, flirting, or chas veshalom! I'm a happily married guy - so you know, take a pill. Do the words Machon Shlomo mean anything to you? Hmmmm???)

Okay - meanwhile the frum phone thing: very funny (for BITUL TORAH of course...

And re: Chassidus and all that: You know, it's strange, from the Litvishe side of the fence, I always thought that the key to happiness was getting to sleep late and still be a tzaddik???? What's the big deal on "restrictions" When Shacharis starts at 10:30 every day????

But MG asked for the "answer," - Ah yes, revealing my "kitnus" when I was claiming gadlus!

Okay...here's my answer: Find something in yiddishkeit that yes, DOES SPEAK TO YOU IN A POWERFUL WAY, something that gets you out of yourself and into helping the clal, and most of your problems will go away. Ignore the 'rents (that's secular suburban for parents) and their stuff (as in just smile and know they love you....also veiled reference to MUSIC YOU SHOULDN'T KNOW ABOUT! :)

And...try to have a good time with your husband and wife in bed and be nice to your kids....homeschool if you have to...and finally,

THINK ABOUT MOVING OUT OF TOWN! You'd be surprised how happy a person can be out of the fishbowl. I know of one case, a girl who got divorced...from a chashuv family and all that...from one of those places - BP or FB or Williamsburg, I dunno...she moved WAAAAYYYY DOWWWNNNN TO San Diego (that's as far as you can get a way) with her kids, met a real mensch of a guy - okay baal teshuva, but he had built himself up to where he could really learn and was holding (which is less of a big deal than you think, by the way...the mensch part is where it's at)

And that got married and hopefully are living happily ever after in Sunny Southern California with loving people around them...and so what if the kid doesn't have all of mishnayos memorized by age 7 - maybe he'll be happy and stable and shteig when it's appropriate...

Yeah, move out of town, when all else fails...LA is nice, too. As are other places - Milwaukee with the Twerskis, etc...and there you big strong FFBs from "back east" actaully can contribute to something big and be appreciated for it, as long as you don't bring your garbage and issues with you..cuz once out of town - if you get far enough away...you don't NEED the issues anymore....

 
At 2:24 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

kvetcher ...
COME OUT OF THE CLOSET AND EXPOSE YOUR VERSION OF CHASSIDUS. WAITING WITH BATED BREATH!

 
At 2:41 PM, Blogger cynic said...

mg i sent u email did u receive it

 
At 3:18 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

CYNIC...I got your e-mail and responded

 
At 3:19 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

cynic she's ignoring me

 
At 3:23 PM, Blogger cynic said...

kvetch
may be u didnt wash negel vaser,brush your teeth and shower

 
At 3:47 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

if i had 7 gabbais i could do it all but i cant manage with out them. what is a rebbe to do

 
At 3:53 PM, Blogger cynic said...

repent and become a misnaged

 
At 4:08 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

you mean a mister no good

 
At 6:17 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Kvetcher and Cynic.
Misnagid doesn't do it for me....
no heat, no visible warmth. Gotta be chasidus, that's the way to go, only I just can't figure some things out ........still trying to.

 
At 6:31 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

jsirpicco said......
"here's my answer: Find something in yiddishkeit that yes, DOES SPEAK TO YOU IN A POWERFUL WAY, something that gets you out of yourself and into helping the klal, and most of your problems will go away."

HOW??? I can't see it happening.....I do my share of mitzvahs, bikur cholim, etc. but that's just mentshlechkeit.... I feel we all have to help each other, but I still have a heaviness in my heart, because there are so many unanswered questions - I ask why? why does Hashem give such harsh decrees? Why are people living in poverty? Why is there so much illness in our community? Why are children dying of cancer? Why are so many in the community going to psychiatrists lately? (I know this for a fact) When I ask WHY I'm told that one mustn't question....never, ever ask WHY?
We have to have emunah and know that Hashem is doing what has to be done, and the answers will be revealed.......when?
Anyway, that's how I feel sometimes.

 
At 6:39 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

THIS JUST IN.........
At the "Asifah" last night, in Ateres Avrohom, there were 2 speakers. Rabbi Tauber (Ezriel Tauber's brother) and Rabbi Berel Katz.
The hall was packed with men from the neighborhood.

Topics under discussion;
They are recommending and deciding that girls continue to go to school, 13th grade, 14th grade - up until the wedding. NO MORE WORKING for the girls. Too dangerous, too many temptations.
After the wedding, instead of sitting and learning, the boy must go to work, give up the kollel, because his wife should be at home, and not in an office where she is open to temptations....
Cellphones out; it was mentioned that there are yiddish porn 900 numbers, so no cellphones - Internet out - obvious reasons.
GET THIS - THEY ARE NOW RECOMMENDING THAT PARENTS SHOW MORE LOVE FOR THEIR CHILDREN....JUST NOW THE THOUGHT CAME TO THEM.....NEVER BEFORE. THEY SAY, THAT WE MUST KEEP THE KIDS AT HOME, SO WE HAVE TO BE NICER, AND MORE POSITIVE TO THEM. NEGATIVITY, GO AWAY!
If anyone out there knows more about this meeting, let's hear it!
AND ---do you really think any of this will come to pass??
yeah, sure!

 
At 6:48 PM, Blogger jsirpicco said...

Hey MG -
Well, I don't know WHY...and finding out why doesn't always work to solve to problem, actually...

Why people are going to shrinks is one thing - we live in a crazy society and even inside the frum world, if you don't know what you're really living for, eventually, life is gonna wear you down and make you crazy...(or at least has the power to do that...)

Why the harsh decrees? I also dont' know why...All the bad stuff in the world, is put their, either because of our free will choices, or the logical extension of free will choices, or has yissurim for aveiras or yissurim shel Ahava, or because, yes, of Mazel...but that's not the point really, why it's there.

It's there SO WE WILL REACT TO IT, AND do what we can to make it better - whether it's davening for someone - really davening, or rising to the occasion to respond to the need in some concrete way, etc. or improve our ways, or simply to confront the challenge with dignity...

So - I'm not saying go out and save the world all at once in order to solve problems of existential angts "even among the frum," but making a small effort in some area does wonders - maybe I'm naive, but getting out of one's own personal "stuff" reduces the power of the Angst monster....

For example...okay - so there's this thing with shidduchim and the system and being pushed into it to early - you could become the GoTo Lady for girls who have questions this way...guiding them on how to deal with parents, issues, etc...

I dunno. There is something that speaks to your heart - usually it's something the person has gone through - that Hashem made you go through so you will have the skills and personality to help others who are going through it...

Dumb example: Jsirpicco spends A LOT OF HIS TIME, helping secular singles deal with THEIR stupid dating life and questions, cuz I was there and I get it...(not to reveal too much)...

Okay, so that's number one. Number two is, if you really have hashkafic questions, then I'd do the Discovery seminar for frum people or Arachim or something like that - is that mutar in Williamsburg? :)... You'd be surprised what WASN"T taught to you but is actually right at your fingertips...

Just my thoughts...I mean - it's a blog, can't go to the bottom of EVERYTHING here...but I do know this: there comes a time in everyone's life when they have to screw their own head on straight and then reach out help others get theirs screwed on straight...just to wander through life wondering wondering wondering blaming blaming blaming questioning questioning questioning and "hanging out at the pizza place," metaphorically speaking, won't do it anymore...we've got a generation to raise without messing them up! Ya dig?

 
At 6:51 PM, Blogger jsirpicco said...

Okay - we're in real time here...re: the asaifa...yeah? 14th grade? And the boys go to work? That would be an interesting development...I guess it means boys will be getting married a touch later, though...and girls will go to grade 20...

Maybe by the Chassidim, cuz they can pull it off...Litvish...not to be in kollel? No way.

 
At 8:02 PM, Blogger cynic said...

kollel is a litvishe invention.
my father A"H told me that in europe u got up very early to learn and then go to work(four letter word),and after work you would learn.
satmar rebbe z'l started a kollel because he didnt want his chassidim learning in lakewood.
he only admitted a select few.
todays kollels are quantity not quality.the shver has to support some lazy slob for a few years so that his daughter can have the propper shiduch
this policy is bankrupting us physicaly and spiritually.
its about time some body woke up

 
At 8:04 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

jsirpicco ......
They are talking about the chasidim. I don't think they care too much about others....yup, they are very self-contained. It's only their own that they are worried about now.

 
At 8:08 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

cynic ...
You are so on the money!!!
It's so true. A shidduch can sometimes hinge on that issue. HOW MANY YEARS OF KOLLEL WILL THE SHVER SUPPORT????
My parents also went by the normal route. My father worked! He had a wife! he had to bring home the bacon (oops) he learned in the evening in shul. He had his shiur, he had his rebbe, he had his love for chasidus and yiddishkeit - more so than the babies who are "kvetching the benches" in kollel nowadays. It's a damn shame!!

 
At 8:09 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

I HEARD THAT THE LAKEWOOD KOLLEL YUNGERS CAN NOW TAKE A SECOND WIFE BECAUSE ITS HARD TO GET BY ON ONE INCOME.

 
At 8:13 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

jsirpicco ...
I agree. It IS a WAKE UP call. We are doing many things that angers Hashem...we are soliciting prostitutes, we are lying, and stealing, and talking loshon hora, and coveting, and we have to take notice of what's happening.
BUT WILL WE???
WHO CAN RESIST THE TEMPTATIONS OF THE EASY WAY? TO STEAL FROM THE GOVERNMENT, (and how many of us are sitting in jails right now - more than ever before) WHO CAN RESIST WOMEN WHO ARE THERE FOR THE TAKING, WHO IS ABOVE ENVY,
WHO??

 
At 8:15 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

thekvetcher ...
You are too funny. That's really a good one! love it, love it~! :-))

 
At 8:15 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

WHEN HASHEM WANTED TO GIVE THE TORAH TO HIS CHILDREN HE CAME TO THE LUBABS. AND ASKED DO YOU WANT MY TORAH. WHATS IN IT THEY REPLIED. THALL SHALL NOT HAVE ANY FALSE G-DS. NOPE THEY SAID WE HAVE THE REBBE.
THEN HE CAME TO SATMAR AND ASKED THEM THEY SAIS WHATS IN IT THALL SHALL LOVE THY NEIGHBOR, NO THE SAID WE HATE EVERYONE.
THEN HE CAME TO THE LAKEWOOD KOLLEL AND ASKED. THEY SAID WHATS IN IT HASHEM REPLIED YOU SHALL WORK 6 DAYS AND ON THE 7TH YOU SHALL REST. ALL CONFUSED THE KOLLEL YUNGERS SAID WORK WHAT IS WORK?

 
At 8:18 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Kvetch..
My G-D you are so funny. What a great sense of humor.
Yom Tov Ehrlich sings it a different way though.....remember his song about how only the jews accepted the torah?

 
At 8:18 PM, Blogger cynic said...

kvetch
they can always get a"heter miah ra bonim" as did RMK.
der vous hut the miah hut der heter

 
At 8:22 PM, Blogger cynic said...

kvetch
by the way when i read your chidushim i dont wear hoizen
vehameiven uven

 
At 8:46 PM, Blogger Me, Uncensored said...

Posted by Margaritagirl:

"Nobody has said "booh" (I think) and it is HER reputation that became dirt, not the boy who sweet talked her into it...."

Well I can't speak for nice Jewish girls but I can tell you in the goy world, there are some VERY jaded teenage girls that don't have to be sweet talked into sex. They're as aggressive and sneaky as the boys are, if not more so because they can do one thing that the boys can't do -- dress like tramps. I see girls at the mall sometimes and I want to pull them aside and ask them where their mother is!

"Thanks for visiting my blog.
I don't know what religion you are, but I always wonder about Catholics; Sin - and go to confession - and for 3 Hail Mary's all is forgiven? hmmm....doesn't work that way here."

I'm a Christian, but not a Catholic. I'm as puzzled as you are on the Hail Mary's thing because Christians believe once you ask forgiveness, that's it. Mercy imposes no conditions.

That doesn't mean we get to just go out and do whatever we want and get away with it because there are natural consequences we have to deal with (like pregnancy). Plus our love for G-d should stop us from continuing the same sin.

In this case of this young girl she has hurt her family (or rather, disappointed them), but really -- things like this happen, what can you do? If it were my daughter of course I'd be upset, but I certainly wouldn't throw it in her face for the rest of her life. How could I, considering the forgiveness God has extended to me?

It's just really sad. This kid could have gone and had an abortion in secret, killed her 2 babies and gotten away with it scot free -- and in a few years, provided nobody knew about the abortion, she could be considered good marriage material. But since this poor girl did the right thing, it looks as though her name is ruined forever. That is so not fair :(

 
At 8:51 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

3 HAIL MARY'S HOW IRONIC MARY WAS THE FIRST JEWISH GIRL THAT SNEAKED OUT OF HER HOUSE. AND THEN CAME YOU KNOW WHO. AS THE SONG GOES SUNG TO ROCK AROUND THE CLOCK
JOSEPH SAID MARY YOU GOT A GREAT BOD LETS HAVE A SON AND BLAME IT ON G-D.ETC.

 
At 9:02 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

CYNIC: IVE BEEN PUTTING DOWN SHEETS OF PLASTIC ALL OVER NOW. IN ADDITION NEXT TIME ILOG ON I'LL TUT ZICH OFF THE HOIZEN UN TUT ZICHON THE RUBBER BUDGEES

 
At 9:10 PM, Blogger cynic said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 10:40 PM, Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

"They are recommending and deciding that girls continue to go to school, 13th grade, 14th grade - up until the wedding"

To learn what????
They should never step out of the kitchen, so besides Challa baking, what else should they learn???
The problem is so deep and their solutions would make me laugh like crazy, if it wouldn't all be so sad.

I know A Ch. Tauber personally.
He means well, heart in the right place, but blind as night.

 
At 10:44 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Hoezentragerin...
I agree with you. I wonder what the next chapter of the Williamsburg Asifah will be.......it's not as simple as these speakers seem to think. I don't even know if they can ever climb out of this mess that exists now.

 
At 8:25 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

the answer is norplant for everyone

 
At 8:45 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

its my understanding that in the Amish world, the children are brought up also in a life of rigidity. however, when they become of age reaching adulthood, they are given a few months to go into the world and explore. to run wild and get every thing out of their repressed systems. then it is up too them to decide on what kind of lifestyle they wish to live. do they return to a life ofrestrictions or do they go out into the real world. one catch though, if they choose life ,they may never return to the Amish shtetel. if we discount the later condition from the equation and give our children options on how they might want to be the probability of happiness would be exponentially higher. too many restrictions too many rebels.

 
At 9:29 AM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Kvetcher...
Is that true? About the Amish? Amazing! I've seen them, been in that area for vacation weekends, and I always liked what I saw. Interesting!

 
At 9:31 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

About the gathering in Williamsburg to discuss the "teens at risk" issue;
Isn't that like CLOSING THE BARN DOOR AFTER THE COWS HAVE ESCAPED? Methinks it's a tad too late!

 
At 9:35 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

TO: Me, Uncensored,
As an outsider and a christian, what's your opinion about the rabbincal debates and decisions in the jewish area, to try and keep the teenagers tethered in?
Any parellel situations in your faith?

 
At 9:58 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

stupid yidden we dont need to air our dirty laundry to outsiders. they will find a chink in our armour and use it against us. wise up.

 
At 11:28 AM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Kvetch...
So - maybe I made a mistake about bringing up this subject? Since your last comment strongly suggests that we not air our problems on an open forum?
Maybe you think that discussing anal and oral sex is more "balebatish"?

 
At 11:50 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

ONLY IF YOU SAY HAIL MARY AFTERWARDS. BUT AS THEY SAY IN TELS YESHIVA DONT LEAVE YOU CHAVRUSAS BEHIND.

 
At 11:54 AM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

MG YOU ARE THE ONLY ON SHLOIMYS POST THAT SAID YOU WERE INTO IT. SO WHY DONT YOU WRITE A POST ALL ABOUT YOU EXPERIENCES. IT COULD BE A SEQUEL TO THE HALACHA PART FROM SHLOIMY. I BET YOULL BREAK 500 COMMENTS. TELL US ABOUT MR BIG.

 
At 12:03 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

kvetch....
I was only kidding on Shloimy's blog - duh...

 
At 12:10 PM, Blogger cynic said...

mg
the following was my comment on shlomos blog re oral sex
"under the guise of having a halachic discourse you are busy getting your rocks off"

 
At 12:37 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

WHAT a let down here i thought i was blogging with my fantasy girl.

 
At 12:52 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Cynic...
I totally agree with you. The blog was just an excuse, complete with commentaries, a "kashe" here, a "reyah" there, to talk about IT - THE FORBIDDEN TYPE OF SEX - THE KINKY SIDE OF SEX...if nothing else.
But that's ok - blogs are open for any topic.......

 
At 12:55 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

MG that kinky wow you have alot to learn

 
At 12:56 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

IF YOU RECALL, THIS IS WHAT I POSTED ON SHLOIMY'S SITE.

Margaritagirrl said...
Sorry Guys.
I can't read this posting anymore.
makes everything so mechanical, takes away the taam of the whole thing....maybe men can go on and on, debate the rules, bring a QUOTE from this sefer, another from a different sefer, etc. etc. But I find it a bit degrading to women......where is the feeling? it's all so antiseptic the way it's broken down and analyzed here.

 
At 12:58 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Kvetch..
Without gettting into details, I know all of 'em. the leather, the whip, and stuff I won't even write about. But that doesn't mean that I condone it or endorse it.

 
At 1:02 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

i know you know but our readers want to know too. give them something to make their payos stand up.

 
At 1:37 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

thekvetcher......
Well, then they better rent the movie, "Debbie Does Dallas" - or - Devorah does the Dishes...

 
At 1:45 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

MG THAT IS OLDER THAN MOST OF OUR READERS. THERE ARE NEW IMPROVED MOVIES OUT THERE. THE SPECIAL EFFECTS ARE VERY COOL. THERES EVER A CHASSIDISHE ONE.

 
At 2:06 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

kvetch,
Let's hear about the chasidishe one
(although I shouldn't be using my blog for this purpose - I started out with a serious topic, that demanded serious and thoughtful comments)

 
At 2:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here is my take on this situation.
Williamsburg has their own TEAM. If you wear the team uniform,(you know what it is...the black on black) then you are on their team. Their team is called "THE PIOUS"
If you do not wear the uniform, then you are on the opposing team, called "EVIL".....

 
At 2:36 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

but what if the pious are really evil. what would happen if an elderly or pregnant or and elderly pregnant lady fell on the ice in the winter time. would a chussid help her up. or walk on by?

 
At 2:44 PM, Blogger cynic said...

kvetch
u know the answer, the gemorah calls such a person a chusid shota

 
At 3:03 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

DO THEY REALLY EXIST TO DAY?
WOULD THIS HAPPEN IN WILLI OR BP?

 
At 3:55 PM, Blogger cynic said...

not every chusid is a shota
and not every shota is a chusid
i have had the pleasure to meet
many decent chasidim in willyb and bp

 
At 4:28 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

well i had a rebbe who was a chussid a shota and for arguments sake he was a mamzer too. i remember the secratary of the yeshiva an old ladt was walking on the ice and he say to her i cant help you so dont fall. who needs rabbis like that.
he was such a wanker. it a miracle im frum because of him.

 
At 5:06 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

cynic said...
not every chusid is a shota
and not every shota is a chusid
i have had the pleasure to meet
many decent chasidim in willyb and bp
CYNIC IS RIGHT....THERE ARE VERY FINE PEOPLE IN WILLIAMSBURG, AND IT IS A SHAME THAT THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY IS DEFINED BY THE ACTIONS OF A SMALL PERCENTAGE. BUT...anyone from the outside, coming to that neighborhood and experiencing the attitude, will only remember and accentuate the negative, and forget the positive. unfortunately, that's how it goes.

 
At 5:26 PM, Blogger NotStamaGuy said...

"it a miracle im frum because of him."

Why don't you disabuse yourself of your wild delusions? You're NOT frum. And your cohorts, inclusive of the lady of the house, don't fare any better, unfortunately.

 
At 5:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just came upon your blog. love it. and identify with a lot of things. poems and songs are great too.
About this issue. I have relatives in Williamsburg, and as much as I love them, I hate going in to that neighborhood. I feel like I'm being judged, for everything, the way I look, that I cover my hair with a hat, and not a wig, my husband wears jeans and t shirts with a knitted kippah..(shame on us) and so on. Why don't they understand that it is possible to co-exist with others who are not exactly like them, but also good jews in their different ways.
I feel their contempt for me like a heavy blanket.
My grandmother always said "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" and in Williamsburg, it's all vinegar!
If this is how they raise their children, then can we blame them for feeling stifled and rebelling? What a shame. There are so many good people there also, but when I think of Williamsburg, I think of the fanatics and I break out in hives (not really)

 
At 6:03 PM, Blogger cynic said...

kvetch
your rebbe couldnt help her because
he had a kilah
by the way do u smell a foul oder

 
At 6:10 PM, Blogger NotStamaGuy said...

We need to learn to empathize more with our Williamsburgian brethren, not to disparage or ostracize them.

 
At 6:38 PM, Blogger cynic said...

anon
"I feel their contempt for me like a heavy blanket.
My grandmother always said "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" and in Williamsburg, it's all vinegar!
If this is how they raise their children, then can we blame them for feeling stifled and rebelling? What a shame. There are so many good people there also, but when I think of Williamsburg, I think of the fanatics and I break out in hives"
is that from the honey or the vinegar

 
At 8:43 PM, Blogger Me, Uncensored said...

"TO: Me, Uncensored,
As an outsider and a christian, what's your opinion about the rabbincal debates and decisions in the jewish area, to try and keep the teenagers tethered in?
Any parellel situations in your faith?"

This is an essay question ;)

Well ... on the one hand, I understand where the higher-ups are coming from. All people of faith want their children to live good lives, serve G-d, etc. Nobody wants their kids to stray down the wrong path and as a parent I too feel the desire to shelter my baby from everything bad in the world.

The idea of sheltering the kids exists among Christians, of course, but not nearly to the extent that I've read about among the ultra orthodox Jewish community. For one, it's simply not possible -- we don't have "Christian neighborhoods," or "Christian restaurants;" we are scattered all over the place and thus are forced to interact with pretty much everyone. To raise a kid as strictly as, say, the Hassids raise theirs requires a group effort that simply won't materialize among Christians -- we may share a faith but we all have very different ideas about raising kids and you're just not going to get the same cooperation that you'd get in a large neighborhood where EVERYONE believes the same exact thing.

About the only Christians you're gonna see with a similar separateness are the Amish -- but as far as I know, Amish boys and girls are permitted to play together. And even the Amish allow their kids to go crazy for a couple of years while they decide whether or not they are going to formally become Amish or not.

It's possible to let them interact without ending up with grandchildren prematurely. I can't fathom the idea of NEVER having talked to a boy before it became time to look for a husband. How can your community expect their young men to know HOW to be not only a husband, but a FRIEND to their wife, when they have absolutely no experience with girls? The girls, too, are going from their father's house to their husband's with very limited exposure to the male brain.

Plus it's just dangerous to shelter a kid so much. They need to know that there are evil people out there who will either try to hurt them, or to get them to do things for/to them that are bad. A 14 year old kid that has no idea what sex IS is a prime target for a pedophile, in my opinion -- and it's not like we can't find pedophiles in church/temple, either.

There comes a time when people who are raised in a very religious home have to ask themselves: "is this REALLY what I believe, or is this just what I was taught?" From what I've seen in the blogs I've read, questions like that are unacceptable in your community. It's as if you have no chance to *choose* Judaism for yourself -- it's chosen for you at birth, and in such a tight-knit community it's no wonder that people rarely leave. I'm sure there is great security living in a place where you know everybody, you have the same values, customs, etc.

And even if they want to leave -- they can't, because they have no education (the Amish have this problem too)! I've talked to Hassids that can't even name 10 US states! How can this BE, considering Judaism is all *about* knowledge and produces waaaay more scholars than any other religion? What's going on up there?

I know there are upstanding frum men out there, and G-d bless 'em --but all (yes, all) of the ones I've talked to are cheating on their wives. Now granted, a "good" frum man isn't going to talk to a shiksa online to begin with so I'm sure my experience is skewed. It's like all of those years of being sheltered finally drove them off the deep end -- and now, as adults, there are far more many lives to be ruined when they finally do rebel.

Where is that happy medium is between not exposing our kids to things prematurely, and allowing them to run wild like heathens? Beats me. From what little I have seen, though (and I'm no expert), the way kids (especially the boys) are being sheltered in ultra orthodox communities isn't risking a rebellion when they finally move out of their parents' home -- it guarantees one.

I know a rabbi (Reform) who has managed to keep his 2 daughters turned on to Judaism in an area where there just aren't that many Jews. He never compromised the "rules" as far as the important stuff goes, but he was willing to bend a little at times for the sake of not turning his daughters off completely. One wanted to be a cheerleader, which meant missing Friday night services. He agreed, in exchange that she go to Saturday morning services instead, and it worked out well.

He won the war (keeping his kids turned on to G-d) because he was willing to lose a few battles here and there. I have friends whose parents weren't willing to do that while we were growing up, and now they want nothing to do with Christianity -- or ANY faith at all.

So in short -- I think extreme sheltering is bad and does nothing to nuture one's faith. Some sheltering is good, and "mainstream" society should do more of it. Ditching the TV would be a good start.

 
At 10:33 PM, Blogger thekvetcher said...

not staam go fuck yourself. besser zine a frie yid than a frimme shtick dreck like you, you wanker
im tired of all your crap go do what you want. when i say good nice things that are word of insperation no one comments a little machlokes and the whole world shit in their pants. as we approach matan toirah you can figure out for your selves what to do. not staam see you in hell if i ever find you you wish you said a few hail mary's

 
At 10:42 PM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Me, Uncensored
Thanks for the detailed comment. I agree with many points that you make, but not with all.
You did put a lot of thought into the questions that I posed to you, and I appreciate that;

One thing is clear, as you said -

"The idea of sheltering the kids exists among Christians, of course, but not nearly to the extent that I've read about among the ultra orthodox Jewish community. For one, it's simply not possible -- we don't have "Christian neighborhoods," or "Christian restaurants;" we are scattered all over the place and thus are forced to interact with pretty much everyone."

Yes, being that we are in our own little worlds and neighborhoods, there is a big difference.
BUT;
where you say,
"And even if they want to leave -- they can't, because they have no education (the Amish have this problem too)! I've talked to Hassids that can't even name 10 US states! How can this BE, considering Judaism is all *about* knowledge and produces waaaay more scholars than any other religion?"

Here I do not agree. Although the ultra orthodox, for the most do not go to college, we are VERY well informed about the world around us, and all (or most) of the people that I know can name at least 40 of the 50 states. We read alot, we keep up with current events, the stock market, even with the Mets and Yankees.....

" I think extreme sheltering is bad and does nothing to nuture one's faith. Some sheltering is good, and "mainstream" society should do more of it. Ditching the TV would be a good start."

Most of us did not grow up with TV's, so we're not brain dead.

"I know there are upstanding frum men out there, and G-d bless 'em --but all (yes, all) of the ones I've talked to are cheating on their wives. Now granted, a "good" frum man isn't going to talk to a shiksa online to begin with so I'm sure my experience is skewed."

Of course, the frum (seemingly) men you know, that small percentage of us, are the ones who are on the internet. Don't forget that most (at least 75% I would say) do not have internet access, do not sit in front of a computer at night, rather they are in synagogue, at their daily after work learning hours, or with their families, etc. So that means that you only get to know the "bad boys"

"It's as if you have no chance to *choose* Judaism for yourself -- it's chosen for you at birth, and in such a tight-knit community it's no wonder that people rarely leave."

Everyone in this world has a choice; for the most part, we want to stay frum, we choose to stay frum, we know that for us, this is the true path, but alot of us have many questions, and are struggling with issues that are too numerous to go into.

There is so much more to say......maybe someone out there can give a fresh insight?

Thanks again for your comments.

 
At 11:22 PM, Blogger Me, Uncensored said...

"Here I do not agree. Although the ultra orthodox, for the most do not go to college, we are VERY well informed about the world around us, and all (or most) of the people that I know can name at least 40 of the 50 states. We read alot, we keep up with current events, the stock market, even with the Mets and Yankees....."

Ok, then perhaps it's just the Hassids I've talked to online that haven't been very well educated. (It wasn't my intention to convey that I think the ultra orthodox in general aren't teaching their kids anything.)

"Most of us did not grow up with TV's, so we're not brain dead."

Ok, here I have no idea what you're trying to say. I said mainstream society should ditch the TV -- meaning the general population. I know frums don't have TVs -- I consider this a GOOD thing that everyone should do. 99% of TV it is garbage and most of the shows on there aren't conducive to raising nice kids.

"So that means that you only get to know the "bad boys"

Yep, that was pretty much my impression.

"Everyone in this world has a choice; for the most part, we want to stay frum, we choose to stay frum, we know that for us, this is the true path, but alot of us have many questions, and are struggling with issues that are too numerous to go into."

Fair 'nuff. :)

 
At 11:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To: Va'ad Olami d'Ganovim Shoimrei Toyre i'Mitzvois d'Williamsburgh ve'haMechoiz:

Could you please instruct your hyliger membership to kindly commit and get sentenced to prison for crimes other than arson? Arson is fine and quite profitable, but I am running out of satire material as far as arson is concerned. Please do not resort to murder, but certainly you must be able to come up with some good tax evasion schemes, faked robberies, smuggling/customs fraud, or some other forms of geneiva and gezel to commit.

Thank you, and may you be blessed with success in your nefarious endeavours, which are a stain on the face of Klal Yisroel, but nevertheless remain a fine subject for my razor-sharp nit wit.


Rabbi Getzel Pashvilkemacher
The Creedmoor Chronicler

 
At 12:06 AM, Blogger cynic said...

mg
has kvetch been skiping his meds.
maybe we should get%*} and wake up withone h of a%\
;P

 
At 7:56 AM, Blogger Margaritagirrl said...

Cynic....
I'm starting to regret sending you the smiley chronicles....I have to keep a list with me at all times to refer to...too much work for lazy little me. ;-}

 
At 9:30 AM, Blogger cynic said...

i'm a ]:-) i just finished a\~/ of tea .i owe u a @>--->--- for the list

 

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